13 Replies Latest reply on Sep 5, 2016 11:45 AM by Hucklebarry

    Green is way too powerful

    Mhantra

      Green has everything.  There is literally no reason to not play green.  All the decks have the same base, they all are green plus something else.

       

      Something needs to be done, this is ridiculous.

        • 1.
          Th0xic

          This is quite untrue.

           

          1) Green is absolutely not played by everyone. It's not hard to prove that.

          2) Green is indeed quite powerful, yet the nerfs to murkwater and soulrest have balanced things a bit.

          3) Green has no "destroy creature" cards, only "finish off" (which means you'll be investing at least 2 cards in the removal) or lethal (Allena, Territorial Viper)

          4) Green also has no "destroy support" card, in comparison to purple, white/purple (and even red, although that's a 7-cost giant, so not as useful)

          5) Green is a good base for cheap zoo decks, as their creatures are quite powerful on their own. This could be the reason that you're seeing so much green at the moment.

          • 2.
            Mhantra

            Well,l last 10 games I played, 8 had green.  The others had blue.

             

            It is unfortunate that you defend it.  It will chase people away.

             

            And just run neutral support destroy cards?

            4 of 5 people found this helpful
            • 3.
              TalosLovesYou

              I totally, truly agree with the thread starter.

               

              I don't know how there are some people who are not seeing this? I do have 3 agility decks that I currently run and are my tickets that got me into legend and let me tell you one thing. Agility has EVERYTHING ...and they have it better than attributes specialized in those things.

               

              Removal: You might say oh green only has a way to deal with wounded creatures. But these people often forget that their removals often come with 4/3 bodies, 1/1 bodies, 3/3 bodies, 5/5 bodies and so on. That's right, apart from that one spell, every other removal of wounded comes with a minion attached.

               

              Then there's the fact that their way of 'wounding' ALSO reduces a minion's attack AND bypasses protection. AND is cheap. AND is abundant.

               

              Then agility also has lethal. Things that give lethal and plenty cheap draw-a-card creatures you can wound stuff with.

               

              If you wanted to count the amount of removal green has compared to any other attribute, I'd say ...that's not even enough. Agility has more effective, any target removal, than blue and yellow COMBINED. Don't believe? Go take a look and count the number of lethals, get rid of wounded, and curse cards they have.

               

               

              Creature value: Agility creatures are very, very good value. Take a look at nimble ally, he's argubly the best ally card out there. 4/4 out stats most ally cards already. Lethal just adds sulfuric acid on the wound.

               

              Deeshan sneak? 6/6 worth of stats and a level of stickiness unseen in any other card, just for 4 mana? Throw in agility's ability to remove wounded, you have a way to ensure small minions get punted out and large minions get wounded.

               

              Thieve's guild recruit. Not only draw a card BUT also ensures that if you draw a late-game card, it becomes early/mid-game with cost reduction. Literally no downside to this card.

               

              Charrus reeper. Aoe + debuffs for only 6 mana, ON A 5/4 minion too!

               

              That's just the tip of the iceberg.

               

              Buffs? Lethal. Drain. Khajit. Pilfer. Nuff said.

               

              Draw? Thieve's guild recruit. That taunt 1/3 that draws a card. Easier to cast than any other attribute's draw, even purple requires a body to enchant armor on. This GIVES a minion while cycling through your deck.

               

              Heal? Drain, one of the best heals in the game. Prophecy 4/3 drain. 3/3 that drains when it dies. Give a minion drain. So yellow is not the healer of the game, purple is not the healer of the game, apparently, green is the healer of the game.

               

              Debuff? Curses. I can't count the amount of times I offed an enemy minion through their ward or rendered a minion utterly worthless just using these, and they were given to me FOC by my murkwater shaman/charrus/witches. Or I simply curse one FOC and off it with leaf lurker. That's right, wards are utterly worthless against me.

               

              Ramp? I think purple can't even compare to the amount of cost reduction green provides, purple gains magicka sure, but their cards don't usually come on good bodies or work on the same turn. And it usually only provides 1 magicka at a time. No one else has cost reduction/ramping in their theme other than purple and green. But green provides, at once, more effective ramping than purple: Thieve's guild recruit ramps by 2. Soulrest marshal ramps by whopping 5! And both come with bodies! And best of all, the magicka can be used on that very turn. So. Much. Tempo.

               

              And best part is?

               

               

              THEY ALL (mostly) COME AS THE EFFECT OF THEIR CREATURES. So you don't need to play spells, because your creatures are both spells AND minions - and are bloody cheap.

               

              Honestly, I haven't found an issue I can't solve with agility. Intelligence has issues dealing with BIG minions. Willpwr has issues dealing with Many minions. Purple has issues dealing with lethals and removal. Strength has issues dealing with guard and direct damage removals.

               

              But green? I can do anything, everything, and do it better than everyone. I may have a lack of spells but that's not an issue because MY CREATURES ARE BETTER THAN SPELLS!

               

               

              It might seem like a ranty post but I honestly just feel very irked when people defend green, even I admit I have to use a green deck to get into the top tiers of ranked matches but at least I admit that it's just way too imbalanced. It's blatant lying to say that green is balanced right now.

              11 of 13 people found this helpful
              • 4.
                Drumek

                I agree, green colour is too much powerful in this state of the game. I am currently stuck at rank 7 now because there is always some green combo deck and I just don't have enough power to get through them no matter what I do. I am noob, playing just about a week, so I don't have acces to some of the best cards. So if I go with big creatures and taunts, they just smack me with "destroy wounded creature" or just place some creature with lethal and you can't do anything, if you don't have some kind of quick removal. For example red colour have insane synergy to do wounded creature combo. Cards like: (Rapid Shot, Sharpshooter Scout, Skaven Pyromancer, Valenwood Huntsman, Fireball, Grahtwood Ambusher, Burn and Pillage) trigger wounded effect and have other benefits, not even mention green cards that trigger this effect. If I go with spam of smaller creatures, green has anwser with good taunts, AOE, drain effect, charge etc. Another sad fact is, that if I pick green colour in arena, I have much better results and wins than any other colour.

                 

                So in short, green is currently at the top of all other decks, just try play some games on middle ranks and you'll see bunch of greens everywhere. 7/8 out of games are just green combo decks that have quick board advantage, inasne removals options and great variability to anwser your plays. I don't want to just hate with no reason, but as a new player I am kind of frustrating at this point and currently considering leaving this game if there won't be any balancing steps in the future. I am sure, that i am not only one who may be dissapointed as a new player, so it might be something for devs to think about. Otherwise I see potential, but not until some more balances will be made.

                3 of 3 people found this helpful
                • 5.
                  Th0xic

                  Let get things straight: I'm not blindly defending green.

                  As I've actually said in my first post, Green is strong, but it's not played by everyone, it does not have everything and there exist plenty of reason not to play Green.

                  I fully agree that drain is overpowered, Soulrest Marshall is overpowered (even after the changes) and curse offers much flexibility.

                   

                  Let's compare the Ally cards. Let's also assume all the cards get triggered, because otherwise they would all be the same.

                  Red: Mighty Ally: 6/3 with breakthrough -> fits the Red mentality of hitting your opponent in the face, and even clearing some smaller creatures while doing so. 9 points of stats, so technically more than Nimble Ally, although 3-health minions are way more easily dealt with then 4-health minions. Still, Mighty Ally can suicide-kill Nimble Ally.

                  Blue: Cunning Ally: 3/3 "Draw a Firebolt" (Deal 2 damage to a creature, this is actually wrong in the tooltip I think, as it just says "Deal 2 damage") Lowest amount of stat points (6) but a Firebolt is a good card. With use of the Firebolt card, Cunning Ally can suicide-kill Nimble Ally.

                  White: Resolute Ally: 3/3 with maximum 3 times 1/1 buff, so let's take half of that buff and say 3 points extra, which puts it at 9 stat points. This card can't kill a Nimble Ally on it's own, but this card should never be played on its own.

                  Purple: Stalwarth Ally: 3/5 with guard, so 8 stat points, but it does die to Nimble Ally without killing it. That being said, 5 health is quite annoying to get through without lethal, so it does it job in the ramp mentality of Purple.

                   

                  So Nimble Ally is definitely one of the better, but some Allies will outclass it in certain decks.

                   

                  Removal: I tried to see what creatures you try to reference.

                  The 4/3 is obviously Leaflurker, one of the strongest green cards, but it does need another card to trigger it's Summon ability.

                  I think the 1/1 might be either the Murkwater Witch (which is an enabler, and definitely a strong card, yet not pure removal) or Allena Benoch, which is a red/green hybrid unique, so not completely to the point. If you're talking about the Territorial Viper, then your point is moot, as it kills itself in the process of eliminating something else.

                  The 5/5 points to the Falinesti Reaver, another Red/Green hybrid, and indeed quite a strong card. But again, it needs to be set up, and at 8 mana, it doesn't come cheap.

                  I have no clear idea what 3/3 you're pointing at, as the only thing I can think of, is Murkwater Shaman, which is indeed a strong card, but at 3 health somewhat manageable to deal with (e.a. Crushing Blow). Still, that card does not provide a foolproof way to absolutely destroy another creature.

                   

                  The abundance of wounding doesn't seem correct (unless you compare to other colors, as Green is the only color to have so, mostly because Green doesn't have Destroy actions or creatures, like Piercing Javelin or Manticore). As said, you have Murkwater Witch and Murkwater Shaman, although the second is more unreliable. Apart from that, you have the Chaurus Reaper, which is excellent the turn before Falinesti Reaver, but quite expensive at 7 mana (not 6). And obviously there's still Curse, a 0-cost action that will most likely not go 1 for 1 with your opponent, putting you at card disadvantage.

                   

                  On the point of giving lethal, there is only 1 creature (Skooma Racketeer) which is a 2/2, so not that impressive. Purple has more lethal creatures in general, and their way of giving lethal to a creature is cheaper and buffs for 1/1 (Daedric Dagger).

                   

                  I don't believe your claim that Green has more effective/targetted removal than White and Blue combined, so let's see.

                  Green:

                  Lethal: Territorial Viper, Skooma Racketeer (but does need a second card to go at it effectively), Fighters Guild Recruit, Nimble Ally (if triggered). Also, both Skooma Racketeer (if it targetted itself) and Fighters Guild Recruit get killed by a Firebolt (Blue).

                  I'm not going to count Nest of Vipers, as it is way too expensive.

                  Finish Off & Leaflurker -> both destroy a wounded creature, but both require a second card to enable them.

                  Curse cards don't really count as hard removal in my opinion. They'll only get rid of 1-health minions, and there are plenty of other cards that have that ability. Unless you think of their synergy with Finish Off and Leaflurker, but again, that's 2 for 1 (although you do get the body of Leaflurker, which does count for something and most definitely will get it's value).

                   

                  Blue:

                  Blue has no destroy cards, so if that's the only thing you're looking at, then including Blue would be quite a moot point.

                  Blue does have quite some nice cards for AOE removal.

                  Ice Storm is probably a must for any decent control deck, and Winter's Grasp can combo with Dres Tormentor to get the same result.

                  Apart from that, there's still Firebolt, Lighting Bolt and even the quite expensive Shocking Wamasu, to deal directed damage to creatures. Indoril Archmage is also a means of laneclear, in almost all instances. And I almost forgot Fire Storm, but it can't deal with big creatures in a decent way.

                  You probably should include ward in this calculation, as it will allow for favorable trades were you keep a body on the board.

                  That being said, Blue does struggle against larger creatures.

                   

                  White:

                  White has plenty of destroy cards.

                  The most obvious one is Piercing Javelin. Clean, easy and common, with the added bonus of prophecy, excellent in a pinch.

                  Secondly there is Dawn's Wrath. It will clear a lane of everything (except for Deshaan Avenger and the likes).

                  Mantikora shouldn't be forgotten, as it can kill any creature, including things that can't be targeted by actions, like Iron Atronach or Nahagliiv.

                  Third card is Miraak, Dragonborn. Although Unique and costly, it will steal an enemy creature, and completely turn the tide of the battle, in most cases.

                  There is also Imprison. Although you need to have 4 White creatures on the board, it still is a destroy card.

                  Execute is another destroy card, although only for creatures with power 2 or less. This can used in combination with cards such as Calm or Cloudrest Illusionist to kill even bigger things.

                  The same can be said for Spiteful Dremora, which, in addition to the execution, leaves a 4/3 body on the board.

                  And there is still Arrow Storm, an Execute for the entire lane.

                  You could even include Dawnbreaker if you'd wanted, but it's a really situational Unique card.

                  And I almost forgot Immolating Blast. Although it is quite unreliable at dealing with larger creatures, it can provide an out.

                   

                  If we're counting Hybrid cards, then you should add Edict of Azura (for White, pure targeted Destroy), Allena Benoch (For Green, a Territorial Viper that pierces through cover) and Falinesti Reaver, who falls in the same category as Finish Off and Leaflurker, but who is definitely more expensive and as such harder to set up in a pinch. You could even consider High King Emeric (For Blue). In the right deck, his Summon would deal with almost anything.

                   

                  So after all, your point about Green having more and better targeted removal is weak at best.

                   

                  Drain is indeed in a powerful spot, and should be addressed properly before official launch.

                  Although Green is not the only color with Drain creatures, it does have probably the more stronger ones.

                  Quin'rawl Burglar is an overpowered card, which can go out of control quite easily. That one should lose its pilfer or its drain, or get it's pilfer buff lowered.

                  Moonlight Werebat is another issue. A 4/3 for 4 is actually quite decent already, add prophecy and drain and it is most likely overpowered.

                  And then there is Snake Tooth Necklace, which has the ability to turn any creature in a draining monster.

                   

                  Pilfer is again a strong effect, but only if you totally ignore it. All significant pilfer creatures have 4 health or less, but the ones that buff themselves can get out of hand pretty quickly.

                   

                  Card draw is available to Green, as it is to other colors.

                  Green has Thieves Guild Recruit, which in my opinion shouldn't reduce the cost of high-cost cards, and Varanis Courier, which only draws you a card after it died. (Although with guard, this will most likely happen, but not necessarily immediately.)

                  Next to those two cards, there is Shadow Shift, Goblin Skulk (but only 0-cost cards) and Pahmar-raht Renegade, which need to kill another creature to get its value.

                  Purple has the armor, but there is also Disciple of Namira, which can provide quite the card draw.

                  Red has Vigilant Giant, Triumphant Jarl and Rapid Shot.

                  Blue has quite some, including but not limited to Tome of Alteration, Elusive Schemer (which will come back for 0 mana if not silenced) and plenty more.

                  White has little carddraw, with Eastmarch Crusader being the strongest.

                   

                  In general, Green has around the same level of card draw as other colors, at least in my opinion.

                   

                  Debuffs are indeed plentiful in Green, as it is a Green only mechanic. I've covered most of this already.

                   

                  Ramp is available to Green, and I've already agreed that both Thieves Guild Recruit and Soulwater Marshal should be changed somehow. But saying that Green has more ramp than Purple is quite ridiculous. These Green cards give a temporary and situational boost, where Purple can boost it's magicka pool directly, with Tree Minder, Hist Speaker and Archein Venomtongue (if it kills anything).

                  There is also the Green/Purple Hybrid Thorn Histmage, although for the current discussion, mentioning him is kind of a moot point.

                  Also, don't mix tempo with ramp. Where Green has plenty of tempo, it has not nearly as much ramp.

                   

                  But as I've said in my first post, decent Green decks are quite easy to get by, and as such, you might encounter a lot of these decks while ranking up. So the issue might be availability of cards, and not necessarily pure the power of these cards.

                  2 of 5 people found this helpful
                  • 6.
                    Mhantra

                    Over and over and over and over and over and over, Greed Red does their wound control **** and wins it.  Doesn't matter.  You think you know, but you are blind and the game will suffer for it. You are on a crusade to be right when everyone else in this thread is stating the obvious.

                     

                    So I kept track of these 10 games.  8 had green, mostly green/red.  Four of those green/red took my whole board with wounding them all and using that legendary (which you can have multiple) to kill all wounded creatures.  That is  game ruining broken when that happens 4 times in 10.

                     

                    Next three games were vs green.

                    3 of 3 people found this helpful
                    • 7.
                      Th0xic

                      Please, try to understand what I'm writing, it feels like I've written everything in vain, if you're not even trying to open your mind.

                      If your only rebuttal is "You are blind and that's that", than it its quite obvious you don't actually want to have a meaningful discussion.

                       

                      As I've posted before:

                      Yes, Green (and Archer in particular) is pretty strong.

                      No, Green (and Archer) is not the strongest, ultimate deck.

                       

                      This will be my last rebuttal.

                       

                      1) Try playing a deck with more rush, or try playing a deck with more control. With a decent rush deck, you should be able to overwhelm most of the Archer decks. With a decent control deck, you can probably starve an Archer deck from targets, so it's reactionary cards are wasted. (Think, playing a Leaflurker on an empty board).

                       

                      2) I might be on a crusade, but not one of zealous belief (as I've said before). I tried stating facts, and nothing more.

                       

                      3) You might have to face many of those Archer decks, and Green in particular, because, like I've stated before, it's not that hard a deck to create and play (although at some level, obviously). Try to take advantage of that, and find a way to counter those decks (as I've tried to state in my first point).

                       

                      4) Falinesti Reaver is an epic 8-mana card (Only unique legendaries are restricted to one per deck). If you know that you're facing a lot of those decks, you might try to anticipate that. If one Falinesti Reaver destroys your whole board, then you're not considering your enemy. Think about that when you're facing powerful control decks with Dawn's Wrath (8 mana Action: Destroy all creatures in target lane). Don't just drop every creature you play in the same lane. The two lanes are quite an important aspect of ESL.

                      • 8.
                        helloxan

                        just a quick rundown of some games i played now with my shltty prophecy deck purple/blue (rank 4, 2nd day of playing this game)

                        green red lost

                        purple won

                        green purple lost

                        red lost

                        green red lost

                        yellow purple lost . . .

                        red blue lost

                        blue green lost

                        blue green won

                        blue yellow lost

                        green purple won

                        blue yellow won

                        (not once mirror)

                         

                         

                        green 6

                        blue 5

                        red 4

                        yellow 3

                        purple 3

                         

                        so yeah, its not whole game history, but on average green is just in about every 2nd matchup. obviously no matter how you spin it there will always be a top dog, and im pretty sure thats reserved for green *** (why is at the moment censored?). certainly more so than others imo.

                        • 9.
                          TalosLovesYou

                          I think the developers need to look at green once more, maybe they are blinded by the minority of vocal players who keep defending their own main colour.

                           

                          But I really don't see how anyone can disagree with this thread, green has just WAY TOO MUCH going for it. From the stickiness of it's minions, to the growing ability of the khajit cards, to lethal keywords, to the sheer abundance of effective removals they have, to the ramping of Soulrest Marshal.

                           

                          It'd take a blind man to not see that green is in another class of it's own compared to the other attributes. I'd hate to say it, but I've actually used green to reach double digit legend ranks this month and it feels dirty as heck. But only because everyone is playing green in those ranks. Red/green, purple/green/ blue/green, yellow/green.

                           

                          ...I have fought literally NO DECKS WITHOUT GREEN ever since I reached legend for the past half a month or so. Why? It's many cards are just way outclassing every other counterpart in the same magicka level and it can literally do ANYTHING, except silence, better than others.

                           

                          It's just sad that it has become more a 'requirement' than a choice for it to be played in competitive decks. Nonetheless, ESL is a good game so I'll believe that the developers already know how broken green is.

                           

                          edit: I just previewed the green/purple argonian card that silences AND shackles all enemy creatures, alongside Ahnassi that pretty much does the same thing and more, that's ...wow - the one thing I thought green couldn't do well.

                          • 10.
                            wolfborn22

                            I agree with most said here. Green is broken at the moment. Every match 95% has green due to its strength. I have managed to level up with a token deck up to rank 1 and now im playing legend rank players all i face is a combination of green's. Yes i do not have all the cards i need to compete but even if i did, still i have to wait for a mechanic to get a win condition, with green you do not need to as the cards in green are like a single card/spell combo combined.

                             

                            Love the game but will abandon it if they do not fix it. I am not saying kill off green, either lower its power to the other colours or lift those colours to match green.

                            • 11.
                              Ulfrhednar

                              Seriously.90 percent of opponents which met in regular matches  belongs Yellow school. Straight Yellow School meta some.

                              My friend the green deck is very difficult to play, especially against rush decks really believe.

                              • 12.
                                TalosLovesYou

                                Rven after the patch, green is still everywhere in legend ranked.

                                 

                                My history: as a blue/yellow deck that made it to legend are as -

                                 

                                 

                                BY vs RG - L

                                BY vs GY - L

                                BY vs PY - W

                                BY vs RG - L

                                BY vs GB - L

                                BY vs R - W

                                BY vs GP - L

                                BY vs RG - L

                                 

                                My history as a red/green in legend are as -

                                 

                                RG vs BP - W

                                RG vs RG - W

                                RG vs GY - L

                                RG vs BG - W

                                RG vs RG - W

                                RG vs RG - L

                                RG vs GP - W

                                RG vs BY - W

                                 

                                 

                                I can't help but feel like I HAVE to play green in order to reach legend triple digits, did it last month and thinking of doing it again. Worst part is? I only started really playing RG a week ago, I'm by all means a HORRIBLE green deck player. Yet, it's so easy to win when my all my card's inherent values are through the roof. I feel like green ALONE has more control than blue and yellow combined, alongside way more valuable creatures (that even have control tied to them).

                                 

                                I almost always win whenever someone is not playing green against me while I play green, it's just too imbalanced right now. Reminds me of a Mage/Hunter/Druid of hearthstone combined into cornucopia of OPness here  ...ugh.

                                • 13.
                                  Hucklebarry

                                  Green is strong and easy to play.  But it is not a part of the best deck.  B/Y control is the best deck without a doubt; almost guaranteed to get you high legend as long as you have the cards and skill.

                                   

                                  The reason people see so much Green is because of streamers/"pros."  Archer was released as the first wide-spread netdeck for making it to Legend 1 the season before open beta.  Then Assassin was praised by CVH and his crew when they used it to make high legend last season, and one of them went undefeated in a tournament with it.  Still, they have said that Assassin has lost some effectiveness now that it is a known deck (surprise was a huge factor in the face-rolling it did at the tournament).

                                   

                                  As far as people posting their last games to prove Green is everywhere; these are my twelve games from last night:

                                   

                                  vs RY

                                  vs BG

                                  vs BY

                                  vs BG

                                  vs BG

                                  vs RG

                                  vs YP

                                  vs YP

                                  vs BP

                                  vs BY

                                  vs YP

                                  vs YP

                                   

                                  R = 2

                                  Y = 7

                                  G = 4

                                  P = 5

                                  B = 6